tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1070229262860530921.post9089415252779325106..comments2023-06-20T19:32:32.299+04:30Comments on Bill and Bob's Excellent Afghan Adventure: Not Now, Cato!Bill and Bob's Excellent Adventurehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04340122322147987992noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1070229262860530921.post-76200871636999946352009-03-11T12:33:00.000+04:302009-03-11T12:33:00.000+04:30I don't think that the Chief of Staff, GEN Petraeu...I don't think that the Chief of Staff, GEN Petraeus, or GEN McKiernan is confused about the difference. From my observations of actions on the ground, and from remaining in touch with people on the ground now, there are plenty of enemy-centric operations that are labeled as "COIN." The "confusion" is due to this mislabeling of operations by men who understand that the army leadership wants to hear their people on the ground speaking in terms that can be found in FM 3-24. <BR/><BR/>Counter-guerrilla operations are enemy-centric, and COIN operations are population-centric. Hunting insurgents by daylight and mixing in a few HA drops and attending the occasional Shura does not make the insurgent-hunting pop-centric. <BR/><BR/>This is not to be contrary, it is just based on observations on the ground in the not too distant past and conversations with those on the ground now. That is not to say that I didn't observe good COIN behaviors, but there were huge variances in consistency from area to area. That is why I say that I see confusion.Bill and Bob's Excellent Adventurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04340122322147987992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1070229262860530921.post-88463346603496015042009-03-11T10:18:00.000+04:302009-03-11T10:18:00.000+04:30Membrain, I think most in the Army have come to un...Membrain, I think most in the Army have come to understand the importance of COIN in our doctrine. If one reads the Army's 1986 Field Manual on Counter-guerrilla Operations you will actually find much in common with FM 23-4. The major difference with that manual is that it focuses primarily on the military aspects of fighting guerrilla forces whether as part of a counter-insurgency campaign or during conventional operations. Where this manual falls short is on overemphasizing the focus on the enemy as opposed to focusing on protecting the populace as in FM 23-4.<BR/><BR/>While there are some in the Army that do not agree that we should focus on COIN, I think for the most part the Army leadership has embraced the need for training Soldiers and leaders to be able to conduct operations in this ambiguous environment. For now our training at the National Training Center is focused on conducting training units to conduct COIN operations. Since the training center comes under TRADOC and receives guidance from the Army Chief of Staff I don't think the argument that the Army does not understand the difference between COIN and counterguerrilla operations holds water.Dale Kuehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06494141091930044050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1070229262860530921.post-16676450078599098382009-03-10T08:29:00.000+04:302009-03-10T08:29:00.000+04:30We got good at conventional war, so we don't have ...We got good at conventional war, so we don't have conventional wars any more. Now we have guerilla/insurgents/terrorists/gangsters. We get good at fighting these wars, and something else will come up. Maybe it will be thugs holding up liquor stores.<BR/><BR/>I tried to read the CATO page, I couldn't, my eyes glazed over.Chuck Pergielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14473338620167201696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1070229262860530921.post-646154690367300382009-03-08T22:25:00.000+04:302009-03-08T22:25:00.000+04:30Dale Kuehl, I can't speak for Blue but having been...Dale Kuehl, I can't speak for Blue but having been a long time reader I suspect the answer is that Counter-gueriilla operations are strictly kinetic in nature. There are a lot of people in the Army from very senior levels on down the line who have a lot invested in kinetic operations. They also tend to oppose counterinergency because of the passive elements which are added to the kinetic mix in COIN.<BR/><BR/>Also COIN involves non-military elements as so successfully perfomed through the cooperation of GEN David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker in Iraq during the 'surge' of 2007-2008. Therefore many of those opposed to COIN are opposed for territorial reasons.membrainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527550651850993396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1070229262860530921.post-49303327957999670192009-03-07T21:35:00.000+04:302009-03-07T21:35:00.000+04:30Just curious. Why do you think the Army is confusi...Just curious. Why do you think the Army is confusing counter-insurgency and counter-guerrilla? From what I have seen the Army as a whole has embraced counter-insurgency while conducting counter-guerrilla operations. The big difference now from the 1986 Counterguerilla manual is the focus on the people vice an enemy centric approach.Dale Kuehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06494141091930044050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1070229262860530921.post-52931769207171333942009-03-06T20:39:00.000+04:302009-03-06T20:39:00.000+04:30The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the blo...The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the blog post <A HREF="http://www.thunderrun.us/2009/03/from-front-03062009.html" REL="nofollow">From the Front: 03/06/2009 </A> News and Personal dispatches from the front and the home front.David Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18153191536633461987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1070229262860530921.post-10940487092954603372009-03-06T09:30:00.000+04:302009-03-06T09:30:00.000+04:30So, if I'm getting the argument right, some people...So, if I'm getting the argument right, some people are saying that knowing how to do COIN will cause more of it. Therefore, we shouldn't learn how to do COIN.<BR/><BR/>Two things:<BR/><BR/>1. Yes, because that worked *so* well after Vietnam. Just because we don't know how to do COIN means our enemies will be so solicitous as to fight only conventional war.<BR/><BR/>2. Does this mean that knowing how to fight conventional war increases the likelihood of conventional war? By extension, does that mean that knowing how to have sex increases my chances of getting laid? The answer, of course, is no. In both cases, regrettably. Just because I know how to perform an action, doesn't mean that I will necessarily *do* it.Pope Incontinentius XIIIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08841765401787854137noreply@blogger.com